'Nobody Ever Complained' About Cross: Alsip Mayor
No residents have complained to the village about the holiday decoration on a municipal water tower, says Mayor Patrick Kitching.
A Wisconsin-based group that opposes the blending of church and state told Alsip officials that a cross used in the village's Christmas decorations could be seen from space.
Alsip Mayor Patrick Kitching told Patch on Monday that the Freedom from Religion Foundation's asked the village remove a cross, which has been stored on top of the West 119th Street water tower year round and lighted every holiday season for almost 40 years.
A letter sent in 2011 threatened to sue the village if it did not comply with the foundation's request. According to the mayor, the group complained that the Alsip's Christmas decorations could possibly be seen from space.
"They tried to get me to take it down last year and I just ignored them," Kitching said.
The cross has been used by Alsip since 1973 as part of the village's municipal Christmas —until last week. Alsip removed the cross and is now looking at an alternative decoration for the water tower at West 119th Street.
Mayor Patrick Kitching says he is shocked that anyone would be offended by the use of the cross and that he's never heard anyone take offense to it appearing on the tower.
"Nobody has ever complained about it. They’ve never even commented on it," he said.
The Freedom from Religion Foundation contacted the village in December of 2011, claiming the cross was a symbol of Christianity. Its prominence on public land violated of the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, which the foundation argues strictly prohibits government endorsements or support of religion. Other interpretations of the First Amendment hold that government can promote religion so long as it doesn't show favoritism.
Now, the village's water department is working on a replacement decoration, which is likely going to be a homemade Christmas tree.
The Alsip mayor said he didn't want to spend taxpayer money on a legal battle that was likely unwinnable. Rulings have consistently favored those who have brought court cases against municipalities displaying religious imagery on public land or property.
"No court of final resort has ever upheld the government's permanent display of a Christian cross on public land as constitutional," the foundation's letter to Alsip states.
Patch Facebook fans let us know what they thought of the situation:
Friend of Oak Lawn Patch, Peggy McClanahan, said this:
It is not possible to take Christ out of Christmas. You will find him in all sorts of services and celebrations at our many Christian churches here and around the world, including the church I serve as pastor, Pilgrim Faith United Church of Christ in Oak Lawn.
We do, however, live in a wonderfully pluralistic society. One of the best ways to honor Christ is to respect all our neighbors no matter what their faith. I am quite sure that is what Jesus would do.
So go to the church of your choice this Christmas where you will find Christ alive and well and full of love!
On Palos Patch, Michelle Gillette Murphy offered this:
I grew up in Alsip. My dad worked part-time with the Village. He knew the guys who first put the Cross up on the new Alsip water tower. Alsip has always been proud of the water towers and the Cross. The Cross on the water tower during the holidays was seen for miles. It was a welcoming light seen by 294 travelers. I will take it, mount it high on my house and light it bright to celebrate Christmas. No Lawyer Paper Bully will remove my Christmas Joy.
And Palos Patch reader Shari Cartwright Schmidt threw out these thoughts:
It's not constitutional to only display one religion's symbols. It's the reason so many holiday displays are multi-cultural. If we're going to tolerate one then we need to tolerate all. It's the basis of religious freedom -- not just your favorite, but all of them.
Daniel B Kaktis, who follows Beverly-Mt. Greenwood Patch's Facebook page, had this insight:
Hopefully they'll keep the star atop the water tower in their efforts to celebrate Christmas, not the holidays, but Christmas!
Follow Patch on Facebook.
James Longstreet
12:15 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
Just proves that there is always one rotten apple in the basket!
Nancy Prior
2:29 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
Evil only prevails because good men do nothing!
I wonder if GOD is disappointed at all the cowards walking the earth.
Pat F
2:29 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
Some people just have No Life at all and complain about everything. There's a word for people like that! LOSERS..They probably hate puppies, kittens and their mothers!! Anyway..MERRY CHRISTMAS!! HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
God Bless Us All
8:41 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
Hold on a minute. "No court of final resort has ever upheld the government's permanent(?) display of a Christian cross on public land as constitutional," the foundation's letter to Alsip states. So how about we just take it down and put it back up, and it will be called a "stick figure" for all the haters.
I wonder if tthis group also sues grieving family and friends, of those that have had fatal accidents, for their tributes on the public walkways and roadways in memory of their loved ones?
Wayne Ziegler
2:29 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
It is not a religion that is being attacked here, it is a person...Jesus Christ, the living Son of God. And the freedom to publicly remember the reason He came...to save sinners, of which we all are. There have always been prideful, persecutors of The Lord but He still extends to the repentant, believer His love, grace, mercy & forgiveness. That cross is a reminder of the price Jesus paid for me...Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift!!!...Maybe we should all put a lighted cross this year.
Nancy Prior
3:48 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
Wayne, that is beautiful what you typed!
PRAISE Jesus for His loving kindness towards us. We should pray that Jesus forgives those people in Wisconsin for their evil deeds! and put a lighted cross or a sign "Happy Birthday Jesus" on our front lawns.
Jon K. Stark
10:50 am on Wednesday, November 21, 2012
Yes, exactly. You should all put a lighted cross on your own houses and keep it off of the public Alsip water tower. This is not the Christian Kingdom of Alsip.
Jay
12:35 pm on Friday, November 23, 2012
Jon, buy a clue.
Atheists have been aiming to eliminate crosses in every corner of the hemisphere. They’ve sought to remove crosses that have marked roadside accidents were a life / lives have been lost. For a group that professes “tolerance”, “compassion” along with a kitbag full of other contemporary buzz words including peaceful coexistence, they show and continue to demonstrate an amazing LACK of what they preach.
No surprise there, though.
CL
2:29 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
How about we let the people of ALSIP decide if they want the cross or not? "Christmas" IS a religious holiday. Last time I checked, they also had multi-denominational displays elsewhere. Freedom OF religion means you must be tolerant of others beliefs - why does their non belief super cede my religious freedom?
Jon K. Stark
10:50 am on Wednesday, November 21, 2012
Um, if we extended this logic and had let certain people in the south decide locally who should be allowed to attend which schools, we may be in a very different place. This is a civil rights issue. You can't have three wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. The government is and must remain secular. Put a cross on your own house. There is no reason to shove your religious symbols down everyone else's throat with a giant illuminated cross on a public water tower. Nobody is violating your religion freedom by keeping the government neutral. If the government tried to come into your house and tell you that you were not allowed to pray, I would be there defending you.
Jay
9:17 pm on Saturday, November 24, 2012
Freedom from religion should also mean freedom from militant atheists with their overzealous attempts to squish any and all religious expression. Obviously, these aren’t tolerant people; they are bullies and anti-Christian bigots who use the threat of legal action to squelch freedom OF religion of all U.S. citizens. If someone doesn‘t want to believe in God they don’t have to, but don’t expect the rest of us to silence our beliefs for you.
Rich
3:48 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
Tell them to fly over Oak Lawn while I stand on my roof.
I have a half a cross for them !
Jon K. Stark
10:50 am on Wednesday, November 21, 2012
Sounds threatening. How Christian.
AtheistAtLarge
9:17 pm on Saturday, November 24, 2012
A death threat to shoot someone, really ?
And you do realize that is the only way that you know of this religion of yours, anyone that descented was murdered, just like what you are offering to do.
Funny how you act like a muslim, oh wait, they got the murderous ideas
from you christians, my bad
Tom Fitzgerald
3:48 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
Can the top of the water tower be leased out for 90 days at $1 per month? Then someone not affiliated with the Village of Alsip can place the cross on top of the water tower without the village having to deal with a lawsuit.
oaklawnperson
6:10 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
Sure, you can lease it -- as long as you also lease it to the Muslim group who wants a crescent, the Jewish group who wants a Star of David, the Scientologists who want a picture of Tom Cruise, the Pastafarians who want a picture of the Flying Spaghetti Monster... etc.
I don't get people whose faith is so easily shattered and challenged because a public water tower can't put up a cross. Which, by the way, is for Easter.
Jay
12:35 pm on Friday, November 23, 2012
I don't understand militant atheist grous that get so apoplectic over the cross representing a God they say they don’t believe in,when in reality they just don‘t want to be reminded there IS a God and if he’s being represented by the cross their conscience gets the better of them every time. That proves they really do believe there is a God.
Notice also that they are never attacking Islam, Buddhism, or any other faith.
I wonder why atheists are such cowards.
AtheistAtLarge
4:58 pm on Saturday, March 16, 2013
To Jay
Your god doesnt exist and I dont need reminding of that fact.
Idol worship is abhorrent, wanting to stick a man on a cross and kill him over youre irresponsible acts is disgusting, just for you to feel better about yourself, absolutely disgusting
Please make sure you dont make that stupid mistake again, thinking an Atheist needs to be reminded of your god, after all there are dozens of gods a lot better than yours one can be delusional over
oaklawnperson
6:10 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
And, by the way, the mayor "never heard anyone complain" because they knew they would be shouted down by his own self, and the merry band of loving Christians telling them to go to hell.
Reuben
6:10 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
Just so you realize, the freedom OF religion also includes the freedom FROM religion. The establishment clause of the constitution applies here and the FFRF is well within its rights to make this complaint. You are all welcome to celebrate the Jul festival in any way you see fit. However I am also free to not celebrate it or any other religious festival and not have the state endorse any one of them. You can display anything you like on your private property, go wild. By the way, this "holiest of days" was originally a pagan holiday to celebrate the winter solstice and was coopted by Christians to spread the word, if you want to celebrate the actual birth, you should look elsewhere.
Nolan
10:50 am on Wednesday, November 21, 2012
So true. I didn't have the space to write that.
Joe Wilson
7:49 pm on Wednesday, November 21, 2012
wow! Reuben hold the saur - kraut.
Jay
12:35 pm on Friday, November 23, 2012
For all your posturing on the establishment clause, you foolish atheists seem to have very little understanding of it as written in the Constitution. Much as the Supreme Court has mangled this in the mid-to-late 20th Century, it’s no surprise that modern-day atheists would too, given that its perversion falls in line with their ideology.
Most on which the militant godless base their outrage has little to do with the constitution, but about further expanding the reach of Everson v. BOE, the 1947 SC decision that has held up over the years in a rather spotty manner. As the constitution says nothing of a “separation of church and state”, the “wall” spoken of by the SC comes from a Thomas Jefferson letter written 13 years after these clauses originated, yet this has been applied in the most nonsensical way imaginable.
Since atheists mention logic so much (despite their constant misuse of it), can you please explain the logic of how an allegory written by Jefferson should seriously be used as an authoritative declaration in regards to the establishment cause, despite the fact that that Jefferson had nothing to do with the creation of those clauses, and his letter post-dated the Constitution by 13 years?
I can hear the gears turning already.
Pat F
6:10 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
Is the symbol(+) still up there?? My wife and I always thought that it was a plus sign!! ;-) You know, like it's a PLUS to live in Alsip , Illinois!! I think everyone agrees it's a Plus to live in Alsip so it should just stay up there.. ;-) I see no reason it has to come down??
Nolan
8:41 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
I for one am so glad Alsip finally took that cross down, it has offended me and my family and friends for years. Secondly, everyone that is a patriot for this great country has to support our constitution and not break the law of the land. Our founding fathers came from countries that had state backed religions, which meant that was your only choice. They wanted the U.S. to have a government that did not support or disallow any religion so that all citizens have their choice of belief, or no belief at all. You are free to promote your religious beliefs on your own property at all times, but a government entity cannot. Many of our countrymen have fought and died for this freedom, wouldn't you want to support what they died for. You can't vote a religious belief into your village, it would be unconstitutional. Good men are doing something, the FFRF is supporting our constitutional right to follow our own religious beliefs. A government entity cannot possibly fairly represent all religions (there are over 2000 in our country alone) so it is best that they don't support any. Besides, it is written that Jesus said "You shall bare no symbols to show your love of me", so he would be against the cross. Over 20% of the U.S. population is non-religious so it is not just those people in Wisconsin. It is evil to go against our constitution. The FFRF is the national legal support organization for the non-religious and they do a great job upholding our first amendment establishment clause.
Lo Keey
7:49 pm on Wednesday, November 21, 2012
FINALLY! An intelligent comment worth reading.
Jay
12:34 pm on Friday, November 23, 2012
Poor Nolan,
If the establishment clause was seriously intended to mean that religious iconography couldn’t be displayed on government property, or a governmental body couldn’t begin with a prayer, then the founding fathers were nothing but massive, throbbing hypocrites, and we should be ashamed of them. These men prayed before every congress, the majority of them mention God at nearly every turn, they allowed religious symbols in and on government property.
The main problem the atheist has is a cultural one. Government is of the people, it reflects culture, and America has been and still is a predominantly Christian culture. For the atheists attempting to litigate culture out of Government, it’s akin to playing a game of Whack-A-Mole. Our currency, our pledge, inscriptions in our government buildings, crosses at our military cemeteries, the list goes on and on.
u live in a predominantly Christian culture. You may as well be asking to remove NFL football from the public square. No matter how atheists try to spin it, the establishment clause does not equate to removal of religion from the public square, even though they really, really, really wish that it did.
As for the supposed 20% being non-religious. I know you atheists love to take one, poll, cherry-pick it and present it as Gospel, but the facts really make you look foolish.
More Than 9 in 10 Americans Continue to Believe in God
http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/americans-continue-believe-god.aspx
Bob
8:41 pm on Tuesday, November 20, 2012
In Oaklawn half the village board would be demanding the mayors resignation cause he don't do anything right accorrding to them.
Nolan
9:17 pm on Saturday, November 24, 2012
Hey Jay, it doesn't matter what you or I think about the establishment clause because the courts have ruled in favor of it in something like 90% of the cases. It really really does equate to that. Our founding fathers prayed before meetings because if you did not do it you would have been ostrasized by the rest. It does not matter if 99% of the country were christians, you still have to be fair and equally represent all other beliefs or non-beliefs in our country The only fair way to do that is to not represent any. That still leaves you to follow your religion as you may in your own mind. As far as not allowing religious symbols on government property back then, I'd be willing to bet that they didn't have the legal system that we have now, nor the communication ability. Not to mention more important things to do like start a new country. And Jay, what is with the specific name calling, that is so un-christian of you. Also, you should know without a doubt that I, and all of the atheists I know, do not, in any way-shape-or form believe in any god(s). Atheists do not believe equally of any gods or prophets it's just that the christians tend to try to push their beliefs into everyone elses lives the hardest so we have to defend the human race against them most often. As is proven by this series of comments.